BONUS: Soraya Chemaly | Author & Executive Director of The Representation Project
In case you missed it, we’re airing one of our season’s most popular episodes again! Soraya Chemaly is an award-winning journalist and author whose writing appears regularly in media around the world. Her work centres around defining what it means to be a woman in a world built by men. Her narrative skill, careful research, and humorous tone have been described by the New Yorker as "relentless and revelatory." In her book, Rage Becomes Her: The Power of Women’s Anger, Soraya uses these skills to offer a critical look at the social construction of anger and its effects on women's lives. Soraya and host Eva Hartling share an invigorating conversation about why women should be angry, the 'steps backwards' we have taken when it comes to gender equity, which have now been further amplified by the impact of the pandemic, and the many other nuances of living in the 'boxes' that society has created for women.
This season of The Brand is Female is brought to you by TD Bank - Women Entrepreneurs. TD is proud to support women entrepreneurs and help them achieve success and growth through its program of educational workshops, financing and mentorship opportunities! Find out how you can benefit from their support!
Full Episode Transcript
Eva Hartling: I'm Eva Hartling welcome to the Brand is Female where every week I speak with women change-makers who are redefining the rules of female leadership. This season of our podcast is brought to you by TD bank group women entrepreneurs. TD helps women in business achieve success and growth through its program of educational workshops, financing, and mentorship.
Visit thebrandisfemale.com/podcasts and follow the link to find out how TD can help. I'm so excited to introduce today's guests. As I literally devoured her book, title rage becomes her the power of women's anger. Soraya Chemaly is an award-winning journalist and author whose writing appears regularly in media around the world.
Her work has focused on defining what it means to be a woman in a world, built by men, her narrative skill, careful research and humorous stone has been described by the new Yorker as relentless and revelatory. In her book, she brings these skills to offer a critical look at a social construct of anger and its effects on women's lives.
Here's my conversation with Soraya it's a pleasure meeting you. Thank you so much for joining me on the brand is female
Soraya Chemaly: today. Oh, thank you, Eva, I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today.
Eva: And the first thing I want to ask you I'm really excited to get into your book and into everything that you address in your work.
But I want to start by asking you to grow up. What did you picture or what did you imagine you'd be doing later in life? And did you already foresee, you'd be interested in being an author and maybe you already knew you were a feminist, but I'm wondering what you were dreaming of becoming later in life at a younger age.
Soraya: That's such a good question. I don't know that I had a good impression. I knew that I loved writing. I started writing the way many people do many girls in particular, in a diary. I was very young. I was seven or eight and have continued that my whole life. And so, I think that reading and writing were always part of the way I saw myself, but I don't think I saw myself as a writer.
That seemed to be out of reach for me. But by the time I got to college, I was writing, I started a feminist journal in college at Georgetown university, and then I left college and became an editor, which I really hated. And then I left writing entirely for a long time for probably 15 years, but then I went back
like full time. 10, 11, almost 12 years ago now.
Eva: And what was that journey like on you've just mentioned how, you had a first foray in writing and had left it for a while and came back, but how did you connect with what you wanted your work to be about and what you want it to be talking about, through your books?
Soraya: Honestly, it wasn't really more what I wanted. It's what I felt was really necessary if that makes sense. So, I couldn't I had to financially support myself in my twenties and writing doesn't earn a lot of money. And so, after doing that for several years I thought, I'd like to. Maybe buy some new clothes and eat better food.
And so, I moved to the business side of media. I applied to business school. I went straight through application processes and interviews, and it just wasn't for me. I was sitting in an interview, and I was talking to the interviewer, and we had a conversation at the end of which I realized I have zero desire to be here.
None. So, I went back, and I started working at Ganette newspapers, but in a market development. And so, I earned a lot more money than I would have as a writer. And that eventually became. A job that had a lot to do with the implementation of what we now think of as big data. But at that point was literally the first forays into building databases to support subscribers.
Like how do you build a subscriber database? And also, how do you build advertising databases and how do you bring those together? And so, I moved from media into data tech. I worked for a company called Clarita’s, which was one of the pioneers in what was then called geo-demographic segmentation. It, it didn't include anybody's individual personal data.
It was all based on geography. And eventually I became a consultant. I had three children under the age of three, which is, anyone will tell you is a rude shock. It feels like someone is driving over with the bus every morning. And it's not really conducive as we well know, especially now during COVID to a high-pressure executive job parenting does not make you an ideal paid worker.
And so, I did with a lot of women did which was called at that stage opting out, which I thought was absurd. We weren't, any of us opting out. We were literally, I think, many of us trying to keep our heads above water. And that meant foregoing paid work. And as many women do looking for flexible work.
And I'd say, this is a situation that is a privilege in many ways, because in order for that to happen, you more or less have to be in a hetero marriage with wage earning. Spouse, who is a man who is making enough money to do that. And as we know, that's really not the way the world functions.
It's not the way most people live. It didn't, it, it made a certain type of financial sense because all of our systems are calibrated to reward that structure, our tax systems, our wage systems. Our status systems. And so that eventually became very clear to me. And I started to write while I was still doing some consulting and then my children approached adolescents and I felt that I had to do something so that as young girls and women they were not be, they would not be quite as vulnerable to.
Sexism, ambivalent, benevolent, hostile, or violent that I had. I felt that as a young feminist, I believed very naively that the world would progress and that I could take my feminist sensibility into the workplace and that was sufficient and that was wrong. And so, I wanted to find a community of people who agreed with
the assessment of problems that I had, which frankly, it wasn't common. In 2010, there was so much backlash in a lot of sectors of society. But my whole life, I think to say openly that I'm a feminist or that I'm angry about issues related to social justice and intersectionality. That's not like a welcome conversation that people have.
Like in the break room or at a dinner party or on the sidelines of a sports game, like nobody wants to have that conversation. So, I thought, if I write about feminism and feminist ideas and feminist academic work in a more socially progressive and mainstream media way, that's the most I can think to do to provide.
Intellectual framework and a structure for thinking about some of the things that we go through as girls and women.
Eva: What inspired you? And you just brought up your anger and women's anger, which ended up being, the title for your last book. Tell me about why that anger is so important.
And you've just, I think, done a good job of summing up where your anger specifically came from. You've also mentioned how that anger is not typically welcome in most fields and in most conversations and by most individuals. But why did you feel it was important to. Talk about that anger and to a certain point
celebrate that anger.
Soraya: I think that what I used anger as a filter or a Trojan horse to look at the status of women in various capacities as individuals, as citizens, as human beings as objects of sexualization and violence as labors and. It turns out that using anger in that way can help shed light on the relationship between our gender role expectations and the stresses and inequities that exist as a result.
And so, in the 2016 us election what was so striking was that male political candidate. Could effectively leverage populist, anger. They could demonstrate it themselves. They could speak directly to the rage of citizens. They could tap into a global tide of. Populist anger. And also, I would say masculinist authoritarian rage, and they could do that.
Even in their own embodiment. They could look messy, and red faced, and they could slam podiums and they can raise their voices. That entire constellation of responses and attitudes and behaviors buttressed their leadership. It actually confirmed people's ideas about leadership and about masculinity and about men's roles as authority, in our society.
But women couldn't do that. And certainly not a white woman like Hillary Clinton. And I think that is related both to her race and to her gender. Because in particular white women in America serve a function in that identity, which is to be in need of protection, to be fragile and to be vulnerable and to need a strong, as they said about Trump, broad shouldered, man, how ridiculous is this conversation?
But in fact, her identity, right? Made it doubly hard for her to express emotion, particularly anger, and I think demonstrated the double-edged sword of women doing it at all and of a white woman in her position doing it like for black women Kamala Harris, there is a baseline assumption that she's aggressive and angry because of stereotypes about black women.
And that is very inhibiting, and those stereotypes let people like me spend a lot of time pushing back in media against those stereotypes. But the stereotypes apply in a different way to white women in that when white women tap into anger or express anger, they’re more likely to be categorized as mad as crazy, and that sort of stereotype. And if the woman happens to be Brown, if she's Hispanic or of Arab descent, the categorization is a little different. It's more related to sexualization or food consumption, she's so hot when she's angry. She's so spicy. The words are absurd. And so that election.
Really it, it showed this disparity and using anger seemed to me a good way to talk about how socially constructed our identities are. Our emotions are and the way we relate to each other privately interpersonally, politically, professionally. So that's how I used anger. I really thought, what does it look like?
How do we policewomen’s anger at every stage of life? So, the book starts off in childhood and it looks at early childhood norms and expectations and the way we socialize girls to speak more politely, to not curse, to put others first, to not interrupt and not be disruptive. All of which requires us to subsume our own needs and our own subjectivity.
And so, we learned to do that. We learned to suppress and repress and distort, and we also learn to feel like bad people. If we express anger and that's really problematic because anger is an expression of need and knowledge and awareness. It's the expression. And it's an expression of your expectation of reciprocity from the people in your life or the community you're part of, or your political system.
And so, the. The key question is what happens? Why do we choose to build societies in which we sever this very important emotion from femininity and in which we deny women that and the flip side of that is of course, we also put men in these boxes where they are not supposed to as boys express the feminine emotions, tied to vulnerability and seen as weak?
So, empathy, fair sadness. Even kindness, some, some boys are really shamed for expressing kindness. And yeah,
Eva: no being nice is almost a derogatory term
Soraya: to so it goes from, I go there into sexual objectification and adolescents and the racist inflections of all of that.
And then through what I think of as the fertile years, whether you choose to be a mother in any capacity or not, it's irrelevant in some ways, because if you are. Fem identifying and think of yourself as a woman, you're automatically assumed to be a mother and waiting. And then from the point of that mothering expectation to the larger societal demand that we care for children, that we care for coworkers, that we care for, the people around us, that we care for the elderly to the point where we ourselves have this.
Suppressed anger and frustration and resentment and rage that becomes material in our bodies and causes a lot of harm and pain.
Eva: This season of the Brand is Female is made possible with the support of TD bank group, women entrepreneurs, confidently building your business takes sound advice, plus guidance to the right connections, tools, and resources.
As a woman, entrepreneur myself, I know I need all the support I can get what's great about TV services for women in business is their collaboration-based approach. They work with both internal and external partners who can provide education, financing, mentorship, and community support. TD employees are able to be proactive in the advice and guidance they give to women business.
They can facilitate and connect you to workshops, coaching, and mentorship, and they engage other like-minded business leaders in an authentic way. So, we can share experiences and learn from each other. And this brings me to want to ask you, where do we go from here? And as women and most of our listeners are women how can we break this pattern?
How can we, and I think it's always, we always find ourselves, dancing on that fine line of. We still want to be able to have productive relationships, have positive interactions in a workplace where most women encounter stereotypes and are facing the leadership model that you're referring to.
Where if you want to be a leader in the workplace typically and access a position of any level of seniority, you have to be perceived as a leader, which typically includes. Or more aggressive a more forward attitude. Except if you're doing that as a woman, you'll be called a bitch, you'll be called angry.
You'll be called, so what in today's world. And I think there's a difference between the conversations that we need to have to create impactful change, but as women living that reality on a day-to-day basis, where do we go from here and how we can manage in, in, in, in the current world, but still try to have impact and make change happen in ours.
In our everyday decisions and attitudes.
Soraya: So, I really tried in the book to summarize what you just said in a chapter at the end. And the reason I say that is because I actually, I thought a lot about, as I was writing each chapter, I was like should I try and put a kind of more solutions-oriented end cap on every chapter?
And it didn't make a lot of sense because in the end. There's just overlap depending. It doesn't matter what stage of life you're in. And so, I think there are several things. One is I think that it's important that we understand our own anger first and foremost, a lot of us learn to minimize the way we feel and to use language that does that.
I've never walked into a room and said to a man or a group of men, how are you to have them say I'm exhausted. I'm so stressed. But every woman I know legitimately if I know them well enough, we'll start with, I'm exhausted. I'm so stressed. And when you scratch the surface of that, what you end up with is imbalances a lack of reciprocity of feeling that you are being taken for granted often.
And so, the question is why do we ourselves. Treat ourselves in this way. How do we divorce? The idea that expecting to be cared for. Makes us bad people as women. And so, the first thing is naming their anger appropriately. And make some meaning out of it very often writing helps people. Not, I'm not saying that because I'm a writer, but because it is in fact an approach that is well understood.
It helps you cognitively to process emotions in a different way. But if you can say, okay, I'm angry. What am I really angry about? Am I punching down because I can't punch up, am I mad at my boss or am I mad at my spouse and my getting mad at these children because they can't really?
Respond, what is my anger telling me, what do I want to change? And who could help me do that? And who can help you do that can happen in many contexts in many different ways, in terms of relationships, if you have a spouse, why is your spouse? Why is there a fear, particularly among heterosexual women that if they express need and they express it with anger?
That their spouse is going to get angry back, possibly violent or reject them. And studies show. This is true. The expectation is not misplaced because it turns out the majority of men in heterosexual relationships actually think that when a woman is angry, that she's being unreasonable and selfish.
And the goal that they have, the response they have is to get angry instead of actually listening to the substance of what she's asking for. And so that's a very particular relationship context. It turns out particularly for example, that in lesbian couples, there's a lot more balance in negotiation in the allocation of unpaid labor, for example.
And that's because of a difference in the nature of the relationship and the ability to understand. That there should be an equal distribution of paid and unpaid labor in the workplace. It often helps to find allies and collaborators and what I would rather call accomplices. And those are people who will act tangibly in your behalf because you, and they realize that you will be penalized for advocating for yourself.
And so, building those networks of support in the workplace are super important. And I would say that it's important for women. To really think about not holding other women to a higher standard. Why do we expect other women to somehow be magical creatures and have such a low bar for men, such a low bar for behavior?
And I think that's really important. And then another aspect of this that's so important is that a lot of people have a lot of influence over children, and we need to use that influence wisely. And to model the kind of behavior that we would want them to engage in that is healthy to not penalize girls and boys for not acting like ladies and gentlemen.
I really struggle to say in a polite way, how damaging it can be to hold boys and girls to gendered standards of behavior. Why can't we teach children emotional competence and how to be kind to people. Without infusing them with these very damaging, gendered expectations and norms. And I think that we also need to think hard about our ideas about leadership.
Leadership is currently primarily defined in terms of masculinity. And I think that has very deep roots that. A crew from the time we're born to the time we die. And our society has to accept at some point that this is really hurting our societies and it is, we know it is. And yet it's a very hard problem to shake, and then the last thing I would say is. I really would advise that people not buy the kind of neoliberal language of personal empowerment. Empowerment is not power. We really need power. And the kind of empowerment that has been monetized and is being sold often to women, especially in terms of self-care.
Yes. I think that when you have to engage in frantic levels of self-care, it's because you're not being cared for by the people around you or your society. And that's really the crux of the problem
Eva: that, yeah, that is so interesting. Yeah. That's a very valid point. And I want to talk about the role that organizations play in.
I'm asking that because. A lot of our listeners are women entrepreneurs who run their own company. They might be in a leadership position. I think we have an individual responsibility and you've just outlined ways that we can help impact change and help advance and change the situation.
But how can organizations do a better job? And I'm asking this also as this episode's running during women's month. Where we know it's the pink washing milestone of the year, moment, milestone moment of the year, where every company is going to be externally celebrating the women within their ranks.
And then we look at what they're actually putting into practice. And then there, the reality is not always as I as nice is the responsibility that organs organizations need to take. And what are steps that they can take to properly help change that leadership culture within their brand.
Soraya: First of all, I think I know that sounds really wonky, but there's some great writing on how patriarchal our systems and corporate organizations are.
And I always think that it's beneficial for people to think structurally about these problems as they build their own businesses so that they're not reproducing. The structures that in fact hurt them in the end. So, understanding the way that white supremacist patriarchy functions and the ways in which it continues to be rewarded.
Is important from that perspective, we need to build new types of collectives and organizations. So, for example, I just had this conversation with a person that I worked closely with, and we had to produce an org chart and I am not really interested in the traditional org chart because it is, it does everything we just described and it's a power over a system and it's very hierarchical and we could go into the ways in which org charts, mirror, militaries.
There are lots of interesting sociological things, but in fact, there are alternative models, so like the girl Scouts has a model of organization. That's a series of concentric circles. And if we're starting businesses, if we're running businesses, we don't have to just do, what's been done.
We can create different types of organizations and managements styles that understand why we need to change leadership, why we need to change relationships within organizations, why we need to reward a different type of standard of creativity, for example. And so, I think that's really important.
The other thing you said something that I was. It made me I really wanted to respond to
Eva: maybe the women's where every company celebrating
Soraya: hundreds of emails saying, will you share our women's empowerment anti-rape thing, or look at our wonderful pink products as you say. And, and the first thing I ever do.
Which I really urge people to do is go and look at the board of directors of the organization. That's trying to get you to support them. So, I just I'm that terrible person online. Who's Oh look, there are 12 people. And none of them is a woman and none of them is a person of color. And I'm, I like this is such a sham.
And so, we need to be able to demand that these institutions. Stop the window dressing. And part of that, part of that is just using the power. We have whatever power we have, whether it's the power of the pocketbook or of a platform or a broadcast medium to say, no, you don't get to do this.
You don't get to claim that you are a champion for girls and women's rights. And then do you curse on this show? Cause I'm so close to curse.
Eva: We'll just check that little box that Apple provides us. Don't have to check the box. And it's interesting because I was just reading a headline that came out yesterday about Twitter committing that 25% of its executives will be minorities or women.
By 20, 25. And they've been getting a lot of backlashes because first the announcement was understood to be only minorities, and any clarified it was minorities or women. So, putting the two or sorry yeah, w yeah, basically putting the two in the same bucket and also why only 25%, how hard is it to get, and we're talking about executives.
Syria not even a board. Executives can be a pretty, pretty wide group of individuals within a company. Why is it only 25% in 2021?
Soraya: Yes. I think what you say is true. I think first of all, it's always disappointing to think that here we are in 2021 and that these numbers are so skewed, right?
Especially in tech. Tech was a world in its early inception that was filled with women as programmers, women, as engineers, women who were doing such exciting work. And there was a real shift and a backlash in the eighties and nineties. And I would argue in education throughout the arts that has resulted in more occupational sex segregation than
we ever could have imagined in 1985 or 1995. And so, the question I have with a number, like the one you just said is, okay what does that even mean? Let's say that 25% of Twitter will now be women or femme identifying workers. Chances are very high. And I know this from research that I've done and writing and interviews with industry experts, that those women are going to be clustered in an around very traditionally gendered work.
he cares work of the organization, right? Customer service, content, moderation, legal human resources personnel. Honestly, it's almost laughable because. I've seen an org charts where women now have titles, like VP of people, and the one example that really sticks in my mind recently is Facebook.
A couple of years ago, they announced a reorganization of their engineering team. And I think there were maybe 13 and 14 men. And one woman and the men were all VP or senior VPs of various parts of product development. And the woman's role on the product development team was head of integrity. And again, it's this sort of odd in position of a very outdated.
Sensibility about men and women. Certainly. And I will say that in that panoply of people, no, nobody black and hard to see who may have been a person of color, but vast majority white across the board. Very evidently. But again, you think The VP of integrity. So, women are, again, are responsible for keeping the boys in line when they get out of line.
What is that? So, it's, I think it's a complex equation within the disappointing reality that this is were
Eva: yes, absolutely. That's it. And it's, and if you're just going to label the group of, HR advisors and maybe marketing, which often goes to women as well, as executives and then count them in your ratio for women leaders.
But if the culture is not changing internally, your board composition is not changing. We're not getting anywhere.
Soraya: That's the point, and the thing is that at a company like Facebook in particular, The COO Sheryl Sandberg has such visibility. And it's really a false equivalence to say there's Mark Zuckerberg and there's Sheryl Sandberg because that's really not the power dynamic.
And additionally, you have this complete array of faceless, nameless, anonymous men, and they are all men by their own accounting who are making very important decisions about the future of technology. And social media, and yet we don't know who they are, and they're not being trotted out in a very public way.
And they get to retain this anonymity which is also very problematic. And even within Facebook, I did a long form article with my writing partner, Catherine Boonie that was released in September. And it was about all of these issues. And, even at Facebook, an ex-senior employee referred to that team of women who were.
Dealing with content and legal issues and the sort of what happens after we launch a product, right? Not what happens to create that product. They were called it the Housewives that's the sort of the cleanup crew for the risks that evolve.
Eva: Do you think that, and I hate using the term to next generation because I don't even know who that is anymore, but are maybe, young women graduates were coming on the job market today.
Do you think they are equipped and maybe and it's not just about the women graduates? The men graduate as well, who we hope to have a different outlook and mindset. Do you think we will see that change happen if we haven't moved since 1992 and we've possibly been going backwards what is it going to require for the change to finally happen?
Soraya: I think the change is really two steps forward. One step back. I think, again, there's only so much that we, as individuals can ever do, right? These are societal problems and cultural problems and economic problems and social problems. And in fact, I think girls and women have been equipped for a very long time.
I think that boys and men have not been equipped. Weren’t men have not been equipped with evolving healthy notions of masculinity or of gender or of how to see their own identities. One of the core issues I think we face is that the prevailing ideology of masculinity is one that it is. It has two main pillars protecting and providing virtually anywhere in the world.
You go a good man understands that he needs to provide, because masculinity is so closely aligned with income generation, with feeding and Producing money for your family. And he needs to protect and those two things, both of them are built on the notion that girls and women have to be vulnerable.
Why do you have to protect someone if she is safe? And in fact, most girls and women are endangered, not by strangers, but by men, they live with fathers, brothers, uncles, aunts. Spouses, and that model of masculinity, it doesn't serve women or their safety. It doesn't really protect them. It's, it includes a patriarchal notion of privacy that actually endangers children and women.
And on the providing front, I think this has to do with things like me too. And time's up, women are saying we. Can and will and have to earn our own income and we should be paid fairly for that work. And oh, by the way, I'm also not safe at work. I'm being sexually harassed as a hostility to my workplace equality.
But all of that together means that men can easily feel like they're also failing to provide, because if someone's saying I'm good, you don't need to provide for me. What does it mean? And so, I think it's probably a much more urgent issue to think about why we haven't changed these ideals of masculinity in 50 years.
We're still socializing boys the way they were socialized 50 years ago.
Eva: So, this past year with the. The pandemic we've been living through for the past 12 months now has been especially tough on women. Both from a generally mental health inequities job loss the extra burden of taking care of children at home and taking care of the household in, in, in many cases.
And it's really put a spotlight on the inequities that were already present in our system and made us realize how broken our system is. What's going to happen next in your opinion. So, what's going to be to state, for women as we start recovering from this pandemic crisis.
Soraya: So, I think this does definitely fall into the two steps forward.
One step back. I don't think there's really any ambiguity about what's going to happen in the next 10 years. We know what's going to happen. We've seen it over and over again. We've seen. Lots of economic studies about what happens in the wake of disasters or pandemics or epidemics. So, in the 20th century, whether it was the influenza of 19, 19, or Ebola or SARS or H1N1 it's always been the case that women take the hardest economic hit.
They are family caretakers, they're workplace caretakers. They're the majority of low wage service workers, the majority of healthcare workers. So, they're vulnerable on all of those fronts. They're more likely to be exposed to illness. They're more likely to be caring for the ill and they're more likely not to be paid for any of that work.
And so, in the instances of other epidemics, as we are seeing in this one, Women will have to leave the paid workforce. So, in the U S more than a million women and they can't just bounce back. You don't just say, Hey, I'm back. The pandemic is. Receding, or maybe in a few years we can actually say this pandemic is over.
And I want my job back and oh, I want the promotion that I was just on the verge of getting or whatever it may be, on average, I think it's between 10 and 15 years that it takes a woman to get to the place where she was before. And that's really a generational issue.
Eva: On a slightly more if it's positive, maybe they may not be positive on a more personal note.
My favorite question to ask guests on the show and it is what you wish women would do more of and maybe it's what women should do less of. However, you want to answer that.
Soraya: I think that's the same question. I think women should do more of doing less. I really do. I think that I think that we're so relied on and socialized to just keep doing, to keep everyone afloat.
And there are a lot of men who do this too. I don't want to suggest that, but for men it's different. It's not inherent. Part of the way we grow into adult, they grow into adulthood in the same way. It's very clear, again, lots of studies for many years that we socialize girls to put others first and to negate their own needs in order to be society's nurturers and boys and men are totally capable in every way of being nurturers.
There are some human societies were men. Are parenting more intensely than women, and it's not, I think a lot of people think it's biology, and I think that men are very good caretakers. And women are clearly capable of being very good wagers, we just need to defender those roles.
So that. The people who want to can do them and the people who need to can do them without having it be perceived as a denigration or a selfish act if you choose not to. Yeah.
Eva: Yeah. Love that. Sir, I thank you so much for speaking with me and yes, it took a few tries to get here, but now. Now we have a great interview.
So, thank you so much for
Soraya: that. I know. I'm so glad we could do it. All right. Thank you for your persistence. It was lovely to talk to you again,
Eva: same here and all the best. I really hope you enjoy today's conversation. And if you did, as always, don't forget to subscribe, rate and give us a review wherever that is possible.
Thank you to TD bank group women entrepreneurs. Further support of the brand is female. You've got it in you to succeed. Let TD help guide you. Visit thebrandisfemale.com/podcast and click on the TD logo. Thank you for listening. I'll be back in a week with a new guest.