Nana aba Duncan | Journalist & Carty Chair in Journalism, Diversity and Inclusion Studies, Carleton University

This week, host Eva Hartling is joined by Nana aba Duncan. Nana aba is a Canadian Journalist who was recently appointed as Associate Professor and the Inaugural Carty Chair in Journalism, Diversity and Inclusion Studies at Carleton University. You may know her from her gigs as guest host of q, an arts and culture show on CBC Radio, and As It Happens, one of the network's most popular radio titles. She has also guest-hosted CBC Toronto's leading weekday morning radio show Metro Morning, the city's afternoon radio show Here & Now, and the Canada-wide Saturday radio show Day 6.

After winning the International Development and Research Centre’s international journalism award, Nana aba headed back to her birthplace of Ghana, where she reported with Ghana Broadcasting Corporation and moved on to produce human rights stories and help establish the radio division of Journalists for Human Rights.

In this conversation, Eva speaks to Nana Aba about racial and gender representation in media and what improvements are needed to achieve equity in the industry — a goal she gets to tackle in her new role at Carleton University.

This season of The Brand is Female is brought to you by TD Bank - Women Entrepreneurs. TD is proud to support women entrepreneurs and help them achieve success and growth through its program of educational workshops, financing and mentorship opportunities! Find out how you can benefit from their support!

Full Episode Transcript

Eva Hartling: I'm Eva Hartling, welcome to The Brand is Female. Where every week I speak with women changemakers who are redefining the rules of female leadership. This season of our podcast is brought to you by TD bank group women entrepreneurs. TD helps women in business achieve success and growth through its program of educational workshops, financing and mentorship.

Visit The Brand is Female dot com slash podcast. And follow the link to find out how TD can help. Today my guest is Napa aba Duncan. A Canadian journalist was just been appointed as associate professor and the Inaugural Carty Chair in Journalism, diversity and inclusion studies at Carleton University.

You may know her from her gigs as guest host of q, an arts and culture show on CBC radio. And as it happens, one of the network's most popular radio titles. She's also been guest hosting, CBC Toronto's leading weekday morning radio show Metro morning to city's afternoon radio show here and now, and the Canada wide Saturday radio show day six, after winning the international development and research centers, journalism award, Nana aba headed back to her birthplace of Ghana, where she reported with Ghana broadcasting corporation and moved on to produce human rights stories and helped establish a radio division of journalists for human.

In this conversation, I speak to Nana aba about racial and gender representation in media, as well as the improvements that are needed to achieve equity in the industry, a goal she gets to tackle in her new role at Carlton University. Here is our conversation.

So Nana aba Duncan, it's a pleasure welcoming you to The Brand is Female today. I'm so glad you could be joining me.

Nana aba Duncan: And I'm glad to be here.

Eva Hartling: I want to start the conversation by asking you to go back in time a little bit and growing up, what did you dream, or what did you think you would be doing later in life and was journalism and writing already?

Something that was kind of a dream for you, or even a thought at that point?

Nana aba Duncan: The idea of journalism didn't come until much later when I was in university or just out of university, actually, I grew up wanting to be a psychologist. I want, I grew up wanting to talk to people and there was also a moment in my education where I considered being a teacher.

And so it's really interesting to me that I've come to this place where I do talk to people and get to know them more. And now with this new appointment as Carty chair in journalism, diversity and inclusion studies, that I'm also going to be teaching as a professor.

Eva Hartling: And tell me, tell me more about that journey to realizing what was appealing to you and even maybe connecting with your field of studies.

You've been working in media for a while. Was that out of a desire or what was the desire behind that career basically? And was it something that chose you or something that, you actively pursued along the way?

Nana aba Duncan: Like a lot of people, my profession really flowed the, where I am right now, flowed from all of my experiences.

I, I told you, I started out wanting to be a psychologist. I had a degree in psychology, but I was always In the performance of some kind, even during high school. So I performed with the jazz choir and did some acting. And then during university, I was always acting I was in dance groups. And so being on stage was something that I really liked.

Being a performer was a part of my sort of personal And then after I got my psychology degree my father being very typical of west African parents wanted me to continue, get a master's degree, get a Ph.D. And I was tired of school, Eva. So tired of school I was done. And so when I found that there was a program, a journalism master's program, that was one year, it was the full year, but it was one year.

I went for it and that's when I really fell in love with radio and the power of sound and I think one of the reasons why I got into journalism was because it was a way for me to continue being curious about people and different people and also to perform. So they had both of those elements and it just has that decision has, it's just blessed me over and over.

It's just blessed me over.

Eva Hartling: So knowing that media was very much felt like your calling, but often are even when we know what our intended path is, our resolve is often tested. So I wonder how that manifested for you. If there was a moment where maybe your path didn't feel so, Such a straight line anymore.

In other words, I'm interested in challenges that you've faced along the way, and maybe it wasn't joining the industry or once you were actually working in.

Nana aba Duncan: I had a really great experience joining the industry in that when I got to CBC, I was welcomed with open arms and supported so much.

And for the most part, I really continued to be supported throughout my time at CBC. There was a moment. When I was getting more opportunities to host I was working in the music department and at CBC music and I was in the second-floor kitchenette. And I was just talking with a friend and we were talking about how I was getting more of these opportunities and he turned to me and he said, you're getting these because you're black and a woman.

And when he said that, I just, I did not want to know what to say. It just stopped me because here I was continuing, going through my life and career working hard. And I'm sure at the time I must've felt some happiness at the success that I was getting. And for someone to turn to you and say that you are only where you are.

Because of these facts, these outward things about you. It really takes the wind out of you. I don't know that's what he meant to do. And I also am aware that he was not happy in his own life at the time. And he has since. He has since apologized to me because I took the time to tell him the impact of that statement.

And I'm still not sure about his answer at that moment, but I will say that what that does that kind of thinking that kind of comment from someone who has been in the industry for longer than you, it has a real potential too. To sidetrack you and to get and to sort of poke at your insecurities and I was going to say ashamed, but the truth is that it did affect me.

That kind of thing did affect me. And, it tells you immediately that you actually don't belong there. Yeah. And that you have to work hard to belong there. And so that was tough. And I don't know if it was from that moment, but I was, I am, have always been interested in new co-workers of colour.

I've always been interested in their well-being. And so from that, from, for a long time, or, I would say for most of my time at CBC would say hi! If there was another black woman on the floor and I haven't been seeing black women, I'm like, hi, who are you? What's your name? Like seriously.

And other people of colour. I'm just so happy to see them. And it's not because. That's all. I want to see it's that because I am excited that I'm not, I'm no longer the only one, and I want to make sure that they're okay. I want to make sure that they are getting, feel like they're getting paid properly or that they're getting the right opportunities, that kind of thing.

And so that grew into another role at CBC when it started the employee resource groups there was one That we ended up calling diversify for employees of colour, and I became a founding co-chair of that employee resource group. And it was because of this concern of mine. It just really matters to me that we feel like we belong because we should, the media should reflect.

Canada and I am part of Canada. And to me, it's very sad that so many of us have grown up with this idea of who it is that we are. We are making our media for, we learned about something. We learned about a character at CBC. Her name is Susie and we called her Susie from Saskatchewan.

I don't know that everybody learned about her, but Susie from Saskatchewan was never actually physically described, but it was obvious to my mind that Susie from Saskatchewan was likely a white woman. She was middle to the upper class. She probably has a high school. More than the high school. She probably has post-secondary education and is straight maybe has access to, or owns a cottage and has a good job and has a partner and maybe, I don't know, 2.5 kids.

And that's a whole lot of, not me in terms of how I of how I grew up. And one of the biggest challenges for me has come in the last year and a bit. And that was after George Floyd was murdered by police. There was a time when I realized that, oh my God, I have always been thinking about Susie from Saskatchewan.

I have never thought about my mother. My mother's a Canadian. Why have I never thought about my mother as a listener? Oh my gosh. So when I had that feeling, I have to tell you. I was angry. I remember feeling really angry that was my situation. It didn't come down to one person, but it's just this one.

And

Eva Hartling: there's a lot to unpack in there and I want to come back to diversity and representation in media. But first I want to ask you were there and, you've mentioned wanting to greet any new black woman on the floor at CBC or making sure you.

You were welcoming and getting to know and anybody that joined the team. Were there role models and maybe women of colour who inspired you along the way and women who were trailblazers in their own? Was there somebody that you looked up to and maybe, helped you imagine what could be possible for someone like you,

Nana aba Duncan: There was never really one person.

I did have in my mind, Marcy, Ian who is has been a television on television for a long time and in media and someone who is who started the game before me, Tracy Moore has also been one. And these are both television people in Ontario, Canada, and But I would say one of my heroes lately is Marianne.

Chad. Do you know who she is?

Eva Hartling: I

Nana aba Duncan: I've heard of her. Yes. So Marianne Chad was the first black female newspaper publisher in Canada and she was the first woman publisher. She was the first black woman publisher in North America and the first woman publisher in Canada. And my, my organization's media girlfriends is producing a black history podcast with Historica Canada.

And one of the episodes is on Marianne, shad, and. She, when I listened to the story, I just, I see, I feel like I see myself to some degree not what I feel like I see is just a woman who had a purpose and she just wanted to make changes and she went for it. And she was also a leader and she's who I want to be.

I see parts of myself and her. And I think I want to be very Anne Shad yeah. I think

Eva Hartling: we actually profiled her recently for I believe international women's day. And she was also, I think she was also the first black woman to attend law school

Nana aba Duncan: In the states. Yes.

Eva Hartling: Which for that time was completely revolutionary.

Nana aba Duncan: Absolutely amazing. And to my mind, it would be great if Maryann shad, I should call her Maryann shad, Carrie. It would be great if we could make sure that her name was attached to journalism in this country because she was a first and I didn't know about her until much later on in my life, but we should know about her in our journalism.

Eva Hartling: Yeah. And that's where representation happens, right? It's those women that have been left out of history books and in journalism and other sectors. And we need to know about them. You're absolutely right. And so fast forward. So knowing now, and because you have been working in media for a few years, have you seen an improvement and also ask the question?

Since we're now emerging of a I think it's been over 18 months at this point of the COVID pandemic, which also. In that period had this experience or racial reckoning, you've mentioned the death of George Floyd and, the BLM movement that followed and in Canada, we've also had our own reckoning around indigenous communities more recently.

Are we moving in the right direction? Are you seeing that the needle is moving when it comes to greater representation in media, for BIPOC people in general? And have you seen the progress over the past few years and in light of COVID in light of the pandemic? Are we still making progress or have we fallen backwards?

So sorry. There are two questions.

Nana aba Duncan: No I, you know what, I love these kinds of questions because as a journalist, I recognize that it's the hope question. And it's the question where it's like, We know it's really bad. Please let us know that it's not going to stay bad. And I know that I can offer, I don't know if I can offer that reassurance.

I will say that for sure. In my experience, things have moved along. I know for sure. At CBC, there are pockets. Individuals who are very strongly making change, trying to make a change. And there are people who have gone to the extent of even letting certain people go. If they don't really if they're not with the program and showing that they won't be with the program.

And to me, that is movement. That's a real movement. What really needs to change is something that I've been learning about recently. And it is our relationship with the fear that comes along with conversations around racism. And I'll give you. And I'll start with the idea in with fear in journalism, right?

When you're beginning, you have to pick up the phone and call somebody that you have never spoken to before. And that's actually really scary unless you've been in sales your whole life. It's not something that we always do, so that is a fear. And that is something that I think we should be, we should be open about in journalism.

It has had in journalism education and in newsrooms, there has often been this sort of hard idea that, you gotta, be strong and, get with it, that kind of thing. And if you can't get with it, then you can't make it in this industry. That kind of a thing.

But I think that there's room for us to talk about how scary it can be to pick up the phone and call someone that you don't know. And then we have to think about picking up the phone and calling someone you don't know who represents, or is part of a group that you've never been in contact with.

You have to, as a journalist, as journalists, I think we have to recognize that there is fear. I have fear talking to a group that I have not typically spoken to before. So I'm a person who grew up with not very many people who are disabled in my life. So what that means is that if I'm picking up the phone to talk to someone who's, who is disabled, that there might be things that come up in me.

I don't know how to say these words, like what words do I use when I'm talking about this group? And then also, am I going to offend you? I don't want to offend you, but I need to know this information because I'm going to be putting this information online or in or on the air. And so I think that there's a lot of space for us to talk about what happens in those moments and how we can change our minds and actually actively start to think about how we can ask these questions in a way.

Honours the person who was giving us their story and honours ourselves and recognizes within us that I'm scared right now. I'm scared, but it is it. I think that it is time for us to in a way I think that we're called upon at this moment to acknowledge these fears and then have the courage to find out what I need to do to get over those fears in order to tell this story in the most respectful way that I can so that I can reflect the Canada that is.

Eva Hartling: And if we go back to the reality pre and post-pandemic there's been, I'd like to sit here and say a global awakening, and we've had conversations. And I think because the pandemic helped shine a light on the inequities in our system and showed us how broken our system is at many different levels.

So at least we're having conversations about what needs to be fixed and what needs to

Nana aba Duncan: change. Yes. I didn't quite answer your whole question. Did I.

So the answer is yes. Yes, there is hope. I feel that there is hope. And one of the reasons is because I'm in a position right now that actually centers the way that I feel that actually centers the importance of. Caring about diversity and inclusion. And to me, that's a market. This is a position the Carty chair in journalism, diversity and inclusion studies is a position that's never existed in Canada before.

But more should. And so this is a marker to me that the oldest journalism school in Canada is seeing what is happening and is answering the call and saying, yes, we have a problem. Here are the things that we can do. And we know we have been part of the. So I would say that the answer to the question to hope question is that yes.

There's some hope. But This has happened before. And what happens is we have a groundswell of support and then things start to slide back a bit. But what we need is for folks like me, folks like you to keep our foot on the gas so that the groundswell stays at the higher level.

Eva Hartling: Yeah.

Can't give up now.

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So we can share experiences and learn from each other. And let's talk about how I think that need because there is what the networks can do right. There is what we expect media to do, but there is an individual responsibility for anybody. Who is producing content, right? So somebody who is sitting in a chair as a journalist, but I think increasingly because so much of the content we consume is done through social media platforms and online platforms.

So even brands now have become producers of media content and how can we help enact that change? And I know part of your mandate as the new Cardi chair I believe includes this, but generally speaking, how would you like to see individuals take that responsibility and step

Nana aba Duncan: up?

One of the ways is to be an upstander when a situation happens. So in the meeting, if we're having a meeting and I'll give an example of something that has happened at CBC and I think it's happened a number of other places if we're in a meeting and someone uses the N-word.

Then another person right away should say that we don't use that word right away. Someone should say it, there shouldn't be a quiet, anybody saying anything. And then that the person, if there's if there's a black person in the room goes away wondering what happened, that kind of thing. No, right away we say something.

On the individual level, it is up to us to take. To get through the fears and stand up and say something. And if that means practicing. If it means following certain Twitter profiles and Instagram accounts, in order to get that information, then do that. I will give you one book that is really working for me right now.

It's called just work by Kim Scott. And it says that the title is just working. Get shit done fast and fair. And it talks about bias, discrimination and stereotypes and harassment in many different ways. And it gives you clues, not even clues actual tips on how to be an upstander, how to understand how you can think about racism.

And gender discrimination and gender diversity and many other buckets. I say I'll call them buckets of equity. And I just find that this book is such a great way to get a start into how to do things for yourself, whether you are a leader, whether you're someone at work or whether you're just like a coworker or just start.

Eva Hartling: And speaking of, media groups meeting that works media organizations what responsibility do you think they have? And should they be held even more accountable for the type of representation, the type of anti-racist media environment that they offer? And I think, for example,

Going back to social networks for a second. I know there's a big issue around managing hateful speech online. And I found myself reading through the comments section, from various media platforms. And unfortunately, there are multiple points of view and, that's something that shows up even in the type of commentary that we read or that we see from readers

commenting on various issues that have to do with race that have do even with women or any other topics. So what kind of accountability would you like to see for the networks and the actual media organizations in that sense?

Nana aba Duncan: Do you mean when it comes to social media? What do I think their responsibility is?

Or are you asking what their response is in general?

Eva Hartling: I'm asking in general. And I use the two examples because there is the reality of social media, but this is something, for example, I'll use a name. If we use, the Globe and Mail published a story comment section on their own website. Includes many people who have a racist stance on things, and then the same thing can happen on their Instagram account.

When, we see a flood of comments that are racist and that are, hateful. How do organizations, media organizations specifically how would you like to see them accountable for that?

Nana aba Duncan: This is a really tough question. And I think that there are some organizations that are trying different ways to address harassment online.

I know that and I will always use the CBC examples because that's what I know right now, or that's what I'm most familiar with is that they have closed the comments in some areas on Facebook. They have closed the comments for certain groups. I know that they did it with CBC indigenous. And that was because there was just so much hate that was being spilled on there.

And ultimately the comment section is for dialogue and good dialogue. You can't get good dialogue if it just hates that's coming through, right? Yeah. So that's one way, which is just closing it down altogether. Or closing it down in certain platforms on certain platforms versus others. But on the general question of what is the accountability for media organizations, My viewpoint is that if you don't take anti-racism seriously, then you are not taking your position as a media company in Canada seriously.

Because your, the country and your company are made up of many different races and ethnicities. And I think that a number of media companies in Canada do take their role seriously. The issue comes when not everyone is on the same page about how the changes should be done. And it can be very difficult.

The question of anti-racism from a leadership point of view is really a matter of big change and a big change in any way. Can be really hard to begin. But one thing I will say is that at the leadership level if you think you need to. A change about how things are done and you have the power to do it, then you should just do it.

If someone is suggesting that X should change to Y and the leader says, but X is how we've always done it. Yeah. Then that is where I think a leader has a real opportunity to consider why X has been done in that way. And also that if you are a leader and you have the power to change X from X to Y and Y will actually better serve your employees, your audience, everyone then does it.

Yeah. And know that you will actually be in the lead for doing it cause not everyone is brave enough to make those. Absolutely. And I'll say this I'll say the same that I have never been at the very top of a company. So it's really easy. It's really easy for me to go well, just change it, but sometimes I have actually seen it.

I have seen it done where someone with a lot of power just changes it. They just.

Eva Hartling: Yeah, absolutely. And that's what makes trailblazers and that's what makes change happen at a society level. We often hear of women in media in general, who have been especially the ones who dare speak up on sensitive issues or the ones who dare speak up for advocating change.

I want to know your experience and as a black woman in media, specifically in Canada, have there been any moments where you did feel that there was hate directed towards you or any type of oh, bullying behaviour? Oh yeah. And how do you

Nana aba Duncan: deal with that? I would say that it really first started when I was when I started my job as the host of fresh air.

So fresh there's a weekend morning show on CBC radio one and it airs to the entire province of Ontario. And there were comments made about my laugh. And then there were comments made about music choices. Not actually my music choices. And then there were comments that were about the content.

So if I, if there was, I think there was one day where we had two black guests and I believe someone had emailed saying is this the black q referring to the other art show? And, or the Ebony queue as though having two black guests was just too much. For this person, including a black host.

So little comments like that. Some veiled comments about my intelligence Finley veiled. And then when I spoke out online about some changes that that some black employees were looking for at CBC there was just a lot of nasty stuff that was said. Here's the thing.

If a person has a problem with me being black, there's really not much I can do about it. I've been black my whole life. Yeah. And I'm not going to change it. And so if they have an issue with me, they have an issue with me. If they have an issue with me being black and successful, also something I can't do about it.

About, I can't do anything. I can't do anything about it. And

Eva Hartling: just from did you feel you were supported by the organization you were working for?

Nana aba Duncan: I think so. For the most part, yes, I do. I think that any time I didn't feel support, it was not because a person was deliberately not supporting me.

Some things have been said to me in absolute ignorance. Not malicious ignorance, but ignorance. Ignorance that nonetheless impacts me. And so my goal is to change things so that, that ignorance doesn't get directed at anybody anymore. Even if it's. And a non-malicious ignorance.

I just don't want anybody to go through it because it has an impact on you. And I would hate for someone who's just coming into the industry to go through some of the stuff that I've

Eva Hartling: gone through. What kind of stories would you like to see told, shared more on Canadian media and obviously looking at representation, diversity inclusion.

Are there specific stories that we might be, afraid of telling, or that maybe we don't have enough media creators or journalists with that specific experience to be sharing with the world? But what would you like to see told?

Nana aba Duncan: I would like to see journalists being encouraged to tell stories from their communities that, that they haven't seen before.

I would like it to be just really normal for us to talk about things from the point of view of someone who has has Has a lower socioeconomic level, for example, or from the point of view of a trans person, for example, in a way that's just really normal and not sensationalized or made to sound like this is a sort of like a poor me kind of story.

And by that, I mean that I don't like the idea of things being presented as though. As wow, this person really made it through life and, look at that terrible thing that they had about them, not that like more yeah, that kind of trauma stuff. Like now we've done that we can move on from that.

And there are people doing it, Eva, there are journalists out there who are creating great journalism and they're doing it from their communities, they're doing it for their communities. And I would like to see that work no longer is relegated to. Ethnic media, for example, or niche, I just want it to be out there because the truth is that if I see a story that is told from the perspective of a Filipino woman, for example, are things that I will relate to, and it might be a surprise to me, but there will be things that I will relate to.

And there will be things that I don't relate to that I think I will be better for knowing.

Eva Hartling: Absolutely. Yeah. Hopefully, with your role at Carlton, we see more of that, desire for a diversity of stories that truly reflected the entire variety of our communities. I actually want to ask you what is my favourite question to ask guests on the show and it's, what do you wish women would do less of, but you can also choose to answer that as what should women do more of?

I change it to women doing less because it's been brought to my attention quite rightfully so that women already do too much in general.

Nana aba Duncan: My wish is for women and gender diverse people to know that imposter syndrome is more about the systems around us than us.

Eva Hartling: Love that answer. And I agree with you wholeheartedly.

We're so quick to, diagnose ourselves with imposter syndrome, right? It's the catch-all now when often the toxic system is to blame.

Nana aba Duncan: Yeah. And that's a tough one to remember. Boy, I have to tell myself a lot.

Eva Hartling: How do you deal with those kinds of feelings?

Nana aba Duncan: After crying? I have been so lucky and I was really smart to surround myself with very intelligent and confident

and open-hearted women who are really good at reminding me of my own excellence and they are gracious enough to listen to me when I remind them of their excellence. So I would say it's my media girlfriends that really helped me. And then there's my husband.

He is my number one, fan my number one support. And sometimes. I have actually been in a situation and without the tears, I will ask me, I will ask my children, I'll say, I'm feeling nervous about this thing. What should I do? And I got to tell you these eight-year-olds and five-year-olds, they have really good things to say either they are just amazing or.

Raised I've been the best parent ever. I'm

Eva Hartling: sure. Yeah. I'm sure there's a lot of credit going to you for that one. But that's great. Thank you so much. Nana aba it was a pleasure speaking with you today. I could continue to chat for a while, but being mindful of the time and wishing you the best in your new role.

And can't wait to see what our next generation of young journalists is up to. And thank you for your time today.

Nana aba Duncan: Thank you. I'm leaving you with a smile, Eva. This has been great.

Eva Hartling: Thank you. Yeah, I have a smile on as well. Take Care. I really hope you enjoyed today's conversation. And if you did, as always, don't forget to subscribe, rate and give us a review wherever that is possible.

Thank you to TD bank group women entrepreneurs, further support of The Brand is Female. You've got it in you to succeed. Let TD help guide you. Visit The Brand is Female dot com slash podcast and click on the TD logo. Thank you for listening. I'll be back in a week with a new guest.