Laura Kraber | Co-Founder, Fluide | a new definition of beauty

This week, host Eva Hartling is joined by Laura Kraber, Co-Founder of Fluide, a gender-inclusive beauty start-up that offers a line of affordable, high-quality, non-toxic cosmetics. Fluide’s mission is to increase the visibility of trans, non-binary, and gender-fluid individuals while promoting a new definition of beauty. The root of this being healthy self-expression and a positive self-image. Founded by Laura and her partner Isabella Giancarlo in 2018, the Brooklyn-based brand donates a portion of sales to LGBTQ non-profits. Fluide also looks to pay tribute to the importance of safe spaces for the LGBTQ community by naming colourful lip and nail shades after queer spaces around the globe. Listen to this episode to hear why this message is so important to Laura, and what it's like to run a brand with such a cult following.

This season of The Brand is Female is brought to you by TD Bank - Women Entrepreneurs. TD is proud to support women entrepreneurs and help them achieve success and growth through its program of educational workshops, financing and mentorship opportunities! Find out how you can benefit from their support!

Full Episode Transcript

Eva Hartling: I'm Eva Hartling, welcome to The Brand is Female. Where every week I speak with women change-makers who are redefining the rules of female leadership. This season of our podcast is brought to you by TD bank group women entrepreneurs. TD helps women in business achieve success and growth through its program of educational workshops, financing, and mentorship.

Visit The Brand is Female dot com slash podcast. And follow the link to find out how TD can help. My guest this week is Laura Kraber. Co-founder of fluid, a gender-inclusive beauty startup that offers lines of affordable high-quality non-toxic cosmetics. Fluid's mission is to increase the visibility of trans, nonbinary, and gender-fluid individuals.

While promoting a new definition of beauty, healthy self-expression, and positive. Self-image was founded by Laura and her partner, Isabella Giancarlo in 2018. The Brooklyn-based brand donates a portion of sales to LGBTQ non-profits fluid also looks to pay tribute to the importance of safe spaces for the LGBTQ community by naming colorful lip and nail shades.

After queer spaces around the globe. Here is my conversation with Laura.

Laura. It's a pleasure meeting you. Thank you so much for coming with me to chat on The Brand is Female today.

Laura Kraber: Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Eva Hartling: So I usually like to start these conversations and ask my guests to remember as a kid growing up, what did you expect you to be doing later in life?

And did you ever imagine you'd own your own beauty company one day?

Laura Kraber: I had no idea. Yeah. My path has been circuitous for sure. I was a big reader as a child and I always wanted to be a librarian as boring as that sounds, I grew up in a household of classical musicians, so I really didn't know anything about business and I certainly never would have imagined that.

I would end up owning a business of any kind, let alone a beauty business. I guess as I got older and my high school and college years, I really transformed in, into more of a do-gooder. And I was really interested in helping, make the world a better place. I felt strongly that we all have a responsibility to contributing positively to our communities and I became a public school, high school.

So that was my first career was working in public schools. And that was what I focused on in my undergraduate years. And that path didn't work out for me. I was very disillusioned working in the schools and left thinking when I get older, I'll go back to teaching. I still have not gone back.

But I ended up. Finding a path into digital technologies, online content, online community building, just based on the virtue of my timing of how old I was in my twenties, as I was casting around for what to do with my life and myself and my time. That was the early stage of web one dot O in the mid-nineties, the late nineties.

So I got swept up into that whole internet startup world in New York City, which was really fun and exciting back then. And that sort of started my career. Love

Eva Hartling: that. And so from moving, obviously from the startup world to launching your own beauty brand that has a specific focus on being genderless and really being a brand for all.

So what, help us fill the gap there. What triggered the idea for you to take on that?

Laura Kraber: It was a bit of a path of a long journey, I would say. And I think that two things really came together and one was that I was working at a health and wellness startup that just had a really vibrant, great community online.

The business was built in the early days of Facebook. When it was just much easier to build a community for a business, much cheaper, much easier. And I was really excited by what that was like to, create content, build community, and also have a business that supported all of that great work through selling products.

At the same time, I was. Kids in New York City. And my teenagers are now 16 and 18, but back in 2017 when I started thinking about the idea for we are fluid they were much younger. Do the math on that, I but at any rate, I was just really impressed with how many young people I knew that were really questioning their gender identity and experimenting with gender expression and, being in Brooklyn, which is very liberal and amongst my friend base kids, were coming out Part of the queer community, at very young ages, to very supportive families.

And I just felt like there was this huge shift going on in our culture and our society around self-expression and gender identity and queer identities. And it just, I was surprised that there were no products or online communities or that much online content. In the same way that I saw. So clearly what was happening in the health and wellness space, and I just, the more I looked at it and the Morris, I was very intrigued, especially by a lot of the narratives around trans identities, a lot of the wonderful memoirs that have been written by young people and their parents around that journey. I just, I was just so blown away by these kids at such a young age.

Really creating a whole new way of thinking of gender and of self. And I also believe strongly that impacts all of us, even for me as a cisgender woman, that freedom from the strictures of gender So this kind of rigid categories, this binary that is quite oppressive for all of us, but we take it for granted and all of a sudden I just said, wow, this younger generation is going to change the world.

And I just wanted to be a part of that in any way that I could. And I saw makeup as being such a key part of how young people express themselves. And it just seemed like a natural thing. And so I kept assuming that there was a brand. What I envisioned that must already exist and I looked for it and didn't see it.

And that's why I just felt like somebody needs to do this and if nobody else is going to do it, I think it'll be me.

Eva Hartling: And tell me about, obviously you didn't, I don't think you had previous experience in beauty specifically. And we know that a lot of the beauty brand is very much filled with kind of the large companies who typically have the monopoly on cosmetics and beauty and in today's world as, so what was that like trying to build the company from the ground up, not coming from that industry specifically yourself?

Laura Kraber: I don't think I would have done it if I had come from the industry. I think a lot of people do crazy things. We'll look back and say, if I had known, then what I know now, I never would have done what I've done. And that certainly is the case. I really didn't understand the beauty industry.

I didn't realize how competitive it was, how expensive it is to get a brand launched and how much marketing money is required to just cut through the noise. And I think I was also part of a trend in that. A lot of indie brand indie brands were becoming more and more popular. More people were starting their own brands.

10 years ago, we didn't see. So many small brands, so many influencers, and celebrities starting their own beauty brands. Whereas in the last few years, that's just, every day it feels like there's a new brand. So I was, I didn't realize I was part of a trend. I thought I was very unique.

But yeah, so I don't think. It's been really challenging. And I think it's just a testament to the beauty of the idea and the purity of the spirit of our brand, which is really focused on supporting young people and showcasing and celebrating underrepresented identities and beauty.

And I guess I'm still shocked that nobody else is really in our space. That was always my fear. We launched, I pulled together a few friends and family money to get off the ground. , We, I have been fortunate, being based in New York City, we have an incredible wealth of talent here in terms of photographers and designers and stylists, and a lot of makeup artists who have helped us from the beginning ideating and thinking through our product line.

And so I, we were able to be really scrappy, and get out there. And we got some initial press attention which helped us and We started growing and then Greeno, gradually I realized how tricky it would be to really be a successful makeup company in the context of the industry.

That being said, we do have, somewhat of a cult following and that has sustained us. And I think our values and our purpose and our mission keep us going and keep people excited. But yeah, I don't. I had no idea what I was getting into

Eva Hartling: And sometimes that's the best blessing we can ask for right.

A little bit of innocence, being naive a little bit serves us as entrepreneurs when we're taking things off. Did you, you come from the startup, the tech startup industry. So you had, you had been surrounded by entrepreneurs and you had worked in the business world yourself, but were their role models specifically who inspired you perhaps, women or.

Or nonbinary people who were business icons or entrepreneurs that you looked up to and inspired you on this journey a little bit, maybe.

Laura Kraber: Yeah. I've been inspired by so many people, so I think initially, yes, for sure. I, not necessarily a non-binary entrepreneur, but people, activists, and writers someone like Jacob Tobiah, who is someone I had been following.

From early on, before fluid launched and who was always so generous and thoughtful. And I communicated with them and asked them to join one of our first campaigns as a model which was beautiful. And, I was so happy to finally meet them in person. So there's just a ton of artists and activists and writers and thinkers in the queer community who are talking about gender-expansive identities, trans identities.

And those people have truly been the inspiration for the brand and we try to feature them and talk about them and provide any kind of platform we can to support their work. But they're not typically business people. I have been. Really fortunate to be part of a few different entrepreneur groups, female founders, especially.

And that has been my, I really don't think I would still be doing this if I didn't have that kind of network of people supporting me. And then through the business, we've met people, we try to connect with other queer-focused brands or indie brands focused on a purpose-driven mission, whether that's sustainability or Also focused around representation.

And those people have been just instrumental to me kept going, just those kind of, whether it's an ad hoc conversation or it's actual tactical advice about something or it's learning, a freelancer that they use that's really helped them with their, PR or whatever.

Yeah, it's really been a community.

Eva Hartling: That's fantastic. And tell me about what makes Fluide specifically geared towards that concept of genderlessness and really the queer community overall. I think that one could argue that, beauty brands and, there are a few brands that kind of have that positioning, maybe wasn't created with that intent in the first place, but obviously makeup has been.

Use my ethics a lot of folks from this community who use beauty and makeup as a way to express their identity and show the world who they are. So what did you want to make sure you address with how fluid is built and the products that compose the brand as well?

Laura Kraber: I think it's a few different things that kind of come together.

There's, on the one side, it's really about the representation and it's about. We want to inspire broad definitions of beauty. We want to promote a positive self-image and create space for a diversity of faces and voices and identities. And so through our campaigns and the visuals that we create, whether that's, photos or videos we want to always be.

Featuring gender expansive identities, trans identities, queer identities, and showcasing the kinds of people that are not in beauty campaigns. That includes black and brown faces. And men or people who are assigned male at birth and may, be non-binary, all sorts of different identities or so that's really, what's central to our mission is saying, you can't be what you can't see is a great quote from Marian Wright Edelman.

And that's like a big part of what we do. It's we're putting it out there. We're making people feel seen. We're showcasing people. In a traditionally gorgeous lush beauty campaign with beautiful photography, beautiful lighting, beautiful makeup. And these are people who are not ever featured in beauty campaigns by any other brands.

So that is at the core of what we're doing. And then some other sorts of other important pieces that are really thinking through the product line how does that suit our audience? So I'm a big believer. Like makeup is makeup. Skincare is skin, so differentiate this deodorant is for a man.

And this is for a woman or this moisturizer for a man. Like none of that makes any sense. And it's just a way for companies to make more money selling, double the price. Not to mention, what does it mean to be a man or what does it mean to be a woman? Like those categories don't really exist for me in the same way that I think I was raised to think they do.

So we're just thinking, what is your relationship to makeup? What is your relationship to beauty and how can we create products that make you feel safe and welcomed and nurtured and beautiful. So for a lot of us, we have a history, we have baggage perhaps. So I think for someone like me or for an assigned female at a birth feminine person, there's just, there's a lot of policing that goes on.

Some people grow up with parents and grandparents and family members who, oh, put on some lipstick, oh, you don't look, you don't look right. Or, lose the weight or, there's a lot of pressure. What does it mean to be female? Like we've never been enough. We're never good enough.

We're never thin enough. Blonde enough, whatever the thing is. In some way, beauty has been. Cruel and punitive. And that is something that I think a lot of women carry within them. And then I think for a lot of male-identified people who like makeup, it was either shamed or forbidden or, all sorts of issues around, around that bullied as young people.

So we're trying to create a space where people can. Feel welcomed and safe and good. And part of that is just really through representation. And part of that is through creating products that are easy to use that are not intimidating. We have what's called our universal line and we have universal crayons, universal glosses, and universal liners.

And those are all created for lip I cheek. So it's a crayon, it's a chunky crayon that you can use as an eye shadow or an eye crayon or as a highlighter or blush, depending on the shade or lip color, so things like that, were like, Hey, I'm going to buy this one thing and I'm going to find a way that I can use it.

That feels right to me.

Eva Hartling: congratulations on what you've created with a brand. And I think you're achieving that goal of representation very well because I was lucky enough to be sent some of the products. Everything from You know how the brand introduces itself through your website and online and social media and the representation really comes through.

And it does, that does feel different than what most beauty brands are doing right now. This season of The Brand is Female is made possible with the support of TD bank, group, women, entrepreneurs, confidently building your business, takes sound advice, plus guidance to the right connections, tools, and resources.

As a woman, entrepreneur myself, I know I need all the support I can get. What's great about TD services for women in business is their collaboration-based approach. They work with both internal and external partners who can provide education, financing, mentorship, and community support. TD employees are able to be proactive in the advice and guidance they give to women's businesses.

They can facilitate and connect. Coaching and mentorship and engage other like-minded business leaders in an authentic way. So we can share experiences and learn from each other. Do you find that I think there's a few beauty brands that are trying to make an effort, or maybe we could say it's performative because there's a commercial goal of, going after the queer community, to the trans community.

But we've noticed an increase in marketing campaigns recently by beauty brands who, are using trans folks or Even taking advantage or I shouldn't say taking advantage, but showcasing drag community or, going after a gender fluid identity in general. But do you find that progress is being made by the industry?

Or are you surprised that we're still, we're still at this place, you talked about how you can't believe there are not more brands in your space doing the same thing that you are doing? But what about the rest of the beauty industry right now? What's your view on that?

Laura Kraber: It's a great question. I think it's really interesting and I actually do feel optimistic.

I would say I do feel that there is a real change going on in the industry. I think 2020 and all the tumult and everything that we went through. In 2020, I think changed a lot of companies and made them really have to think more deeply about representation and equity and equality and inclusion.

So I think that brands today, Can't afford to leave as many people out as they have in the past. And they can't afford to project these very limited idealized visions of beauty. Victoria's secret is a great key study. When you think about, the journey that they've been on and the Victoria’s Secret angels and how they've transformed and, just a few years ago, their creative director or whoever it was.

Who defended their choices. Now they're no longer with the company. They've totally changed their whole. Their whole kind of attitude and brand initiatives. So yes, I do think there is change. I do think that for a lot of companies, it is, following a trend or checking a box and it's not necessarily authentic or real.

But to some level for a young person for a 12-year-old kid, who's seeing a campaign. I don't know how much it matters to that little. You know that young person if something's not truly authentic or, some corporate person is saying, oh, we have to do this to be acceptable to gen Z. It's still a good thing that happened.

That being said, I, we are living in just incredibly in a hyper-capitalist state where the bottom line is what drives everything and So companies are going to do what they think will impact their sales. And, we're a little bit different as a small.

Basically self-funded business. We can make our own choices and we can put our values first and we can do things against the grain and try to survive and thrive and grow through building much more slowly and through spending much less and through gradually creating this online community that will hopefully support us and keeps, enable us to keep expanding our product line and selling products so that we can keep growing and surviving.

We don't have to answer to shareholders and we're not in a position like some of these giant brands,

Eva Hartling: what kind of role do you think consumers play today? And I think, you're right in pointing out that as long as we are in these hyper-capitalist Stands. And as long as it is about, revenue and profit, first and foremost we're not necessarily gonna see that much change or that fast of a change take place.

So how can consumers help make a difference? Obviously supporting, supporting your brand, but I do believe that, when we buy, we vote, so what kind of actions would you like consumers to be doing on a daily basis to help move the needle when it comes to true representation and support of a diverse, beauty and cosmetics industry.

Laura Kraber: I think it's interesting to me as a mom, I think that you really start thinking through your choices of how you spend your money. When you have children in your life. What is if I have this amount of money that I can spend, like what matters? And as I was saying, I worked at a health and wellness startup.

I come, I had some nutritional training. For me, it was like, okay, your health depends so much on the food you eat. So this is an area we're not going to skimp on. We're going to, we're going to invest in healthy food, and it costs a lot more, whether it means it's organic or it's grass-fed meat or it's, whatever the thing is, it's going to cost more.

And I feel like a lot of parents of a certain income class if you are privileged enough to be able to be making choices about what you eat. That is something that happens to you. When you have children, you get much more mindful. And we see that a lot with, wooden toys or less plastic or, and so I think, and we see that a lot with sustainability with eco-consciousness, that electric car is going to cost more, but you're voting with your dollars. You're expressing your values through how you spend your money. So I think that's all. We can do this as consumers to some degree. Yes, we can advocate. There's a lot of things we can do on a personal level in our communities.

But at the end of the day, just buying the products that share your values goes a long way and not just buying the cheapest.

Eva Hartling: And I think it's it's also, and this is something I find the younger generation is doing really well, but using digital channels. So for those who are active on social media, making a point of Not only talking about the brands that they support for the reasons you just mentioned but also that representation comes through, I think, through personal social media as well. And I think it's nice to see in the beauty industry. I'm always amazed at the young activists who use social platforms for their activism and really.

Spoken and sharing the message. And I think that's certainly pushing pressure on brands on governments, but really influencing the rest of us watching basically, and making different decisions.

Laura Kraber: And I think that's part of what I find so inspiring about kids today or gen Z in general and young millennials is that they are willing to speak out.

They listen to each other. They're cognizant of how much they're marketed to. I think about someone like me and the way I grew up and, I just grew up with a fraction of the advertising and marketing that, my kids have grown up with, just having a smartphone from age 12 or 13 on doing research for school on the internet and getting all the ads or, whatever it is, it's just having your social life exist online.

It's just, they have been marketed to so relentlessly from such a young age, that, of course, they're going to be savvy and cynical and hopefully thoughtful and mindful of, what to do with all that messaging. In a way that, someone like me really didn't have to be conscious of until I was married.

Can you

Eva Hartling: tell me about maybe some of them, and I'm sure there's someone on a weekly or even daily basis, but maybe one of the bigger challenges that you've had to overcome since launching your business, and maybe it's something you hadn't foreseen that you'd be facing. And I'm curious to know how you overcame that challenge or obstacle.

Laura Kraber: I think, so many challenges, so many obstacles, really. How to spend our time, how to spend our money. We have such limited amounts of both. So that's like the framework in which we're always making decisions. I think We create beautiful content.

And then we don't always have the money to make sure that it gets seen by anybody, whether that's through marketing dollars or PR campaigns. So that's something I think about a lot is I look back at some of the work that we created in our early days and just how few people saw that, that beautiful pride campaign or our first-holiday campaign and things like that.

And so that's. I guess the biggest challenge was like thinking that this brand could survive and thrive without raising any money. And so that's where I'm, what I'm coming to terms with now is that as a small business, we are probably going to have to raise capital of some kind, that could be debt capital, that could be angel investors.

But that's something that I think. So I can't say I've overcome that challenge, but I'm working. At least my mind has gotten to the place where I recognize that is probably what's going to happen. Another challenge is just once again, related to not having big budgets is just team members come and go.

We can't always hold on to super-talented people. If they're growing at a faster rate than we are in the center. Whether that's a graphic designer or a photographer or a makeup artist that we partner with a lot at a certain point they may then, we can be a launching pad.

And I love to think that we can do that for some of our team members where they get some experience working with us at very low rates or in a sort of a small sense in that we're a small brand. And then they get the skills and experience where they can take on bigger jobs at bigger companies. And that's great for them, but not always good for us.

Eva Hartling: Yeah. I hear you. But there is something nice about being that launching pad and being that incubator where they first, build their skills and expertise. So you're giving back in that way as well.

Laura Kraber: Definitely. Definitely. We certainly try to, yeah.

Eva Hartling: What, tell me, what does being a leader mean to you and what are some leadership skills that you think you bring to your role as a co-founder

Laura Kraber: something I've thought about recently is just how important it is to be positive, to be confident, to show how inspired you are every day by the work you're doing.

And I don't think I recognize that. As a value. I didn't understand how important all those traits were until I started my own company. So I think when I worked for other people, I think you instinctively respond to leaders who are passionate about their work, but you don't always realize that maybe sometimes they're hiding their fears or their, not.

Sharing the full story that they're specifically portraying, a positive slant. And I find that I'm a very transparent person. I'm honest with everybody. I really believe in being vulnerable and being, I think honesty is really important in, in business, and in personal relationships, but that is something I've really learned is that if I'm going to have.

of young people and they're all much younger than me. I need to, it's not, it doesn't really help them. If I talk, start talking about my fears, and if we're going to make it, or if I'm doing the right thing or, is this campaign any good or is that product release that going to be like, nobody needs to know here that, I think we all do want to be human and accessible.

But you do want a leader who is confident and positive. And so that is something I really I've been working.

Eva Hartling: I, yeah, that's a that's an interesting perspective and a good point. And sometimes I think like an entrepreneur, as a leader, it's our role to manage those fears and not push them aside, but have this

persona where there's a moment where we can be addressing fears, heads on, and it might not be in a team meeting with our team present. We have to be that cheerleader for the group often.

Laura Kraber: Exactly. Exactly.

Eva Hartling: And speaking of that, actually, how do you and I won't, I don't think perfect balance exists, but how do you stay grounded and ensure that you're seeing seen throughout this process and you also find time for, yourself and some type of personal life.

I hope.

Laura Kraber: I think there's, this is a very personal business for me and the relationships that I've built through the business have been really instrumental to my positive mindset and my happiness. So I think that's a big part of it is even though I work a lot. And I think about the business a lot it's often very, it's also really enjoyable and fun and there are incredible people.

Have been drawn to working with us. And like I said, it's important for me to be a human first, it's and so I think that's a big part of how I stay grounded is just being really focused on people and the people who I'm lucky enough to partner with. So if we do a photoshoot and it's a long day and it's insane, I'm always, we're always going to have a meal together afterward and sit down and chat and talk about something other than.

To work, who people are and what their stories are, and what they're interested in doing. And, we all are so multifaceted and I think it's really, I'm love to talk to, whether it's a makeup artist, a stylist photographer, anyone who, or one of our models, the stories they have and the lives they lead are endlessly rich and fascinating.

So I want to know as much about all of them that I can. In the same way for me, I actually, when I was a teacher, my first year teaching, and everyone says the first year is the hardest. It was really hard. And my mentor teacher said to me, Laura, don't forget that think of your student's day is a pie and you're in school is one slice of that pie.

And then that English class that they're in with you for 45 minutes is like a sliver of a slice of a pie. Like you're not the most important thing to them. Like you can do your best and it matters, but. If your class didn't go well today, it's not going to hurt anybody. It's not the end of the world.

And I think that's really important. It's just like when we're so obsessed with doing something, and I think most entrepreneurs are obsessed. You really lose perspective or it's easy to lose perspective. So for me, it's really important to keep that in mind and everyone who works for the brand.

I can't a, I can't expect them to be as obsessed as I am, but B their lives are rich and multifaceted, and that contributes to the work they do. And that needs to be honored. And then as a parent, as I said, I do have two kids, and yeah. They're teenagers. So I'm not hands-on in the way that parents of young children are, but it's still, very involved in their lives and they live at home still.

And I have a partner and, like I'm, I have a life I have an elderly father. I take care of, I've got lots going on in my life. So that kind of keeps me grounded.

Eva Hartling: wise words and I love the pie analogy. That's a good one. What's next for fluid? What is what's on the horizon?

New developments, new products may be or new places where you might be selling the product

Laura Kraber: perhaps. Yeah. We are working on getting into more stores, so that's exactly true. We're hoping When we first started, we really envisioned the business as direct to consumer. And it was really about building an online community and building all sorts of like content and creating an online space where people could come and feel welcomed and safe and explore gender expression and genderless, beauty.

And then, when stores started reaching out to me, I was like, oh, that's really interesting. I really hadn't thought that through. And not coming from the industry, I just, didn't have a model for what that meant, but that is something that we're growing and we're working more on.

So yes, I'm hoping that by the end of this year, we'll be available in more stores. We are in a chain of stores in the US called Fuego and Attic Salts. They're in malls across the Midwest and the west. And the south Southwest, I and there are about 50 of these stores and, we're in all of them and that's super exciting to think that, somebody might just walk into a store and learn about us and we didn't have to find them through an online channel.

And then, yeah, we're always coming out with new products. So that is something that's really exciting is just thinking about what does our community wants? That makes sense. And what's the best product that we can create. Right now. So yeah, so that's a little bit under wraps. But we do have new products and development, new stores that we're talking to.

So yeah, I think that, by 2022, we'll be in a very different place.

Eva Hartling: I love it. And wishing you the best of luck with everything that's coming up. And my last question, which is also my favorite question to ask guests, what do you wish women and nonbinary people would do less.

Laura Kraber: I think that we should all do less self-doubt, I think we spend more energy than we need to question ourselves.

And finding that sweet spot between, the unexamined life is not worth living and, questioning every move and. Being somewhat paralyzed sometimes by fear or insecurity or a whole host of things that might stand in your way. But I definitely think that self-doubt is something that I personally am trying to work on.

I think a lot of us are. Yeah.

Eva Hartling: Yeah, that's it. It's always a tough one to crack. Thank you so much. Laura, it was a pleasure speaking with you, wishing you less self-doubt in the months to come and all the best with everything that you're building its fluid. We'll stay tuned to see new developments in the near future.

And thank you so much for speaking with me today.

Laura Kraber: It was such a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Eva Hartling: I really hope you enjoyed today's conversation and if you did, as always, don't forget to subscribe, rate, and give us a review wherever that is possible. Thank you to TD bank group women entrepreneurs, further support of The Brand is Female.

You've got it in you to succeed. Let TD help guide you. Visit The Brand is Female dot com slash podcast and click on the TD logo. Thank you for listening. I'll be back in a week with a new guest.